A key casualty of abortion confusion will be Christianity

The abortion debate and repeal of Roe v. Wade pose a severe threat to Christianity which in any case is falling apart and dissipating, even as it endures ad infinitum. Here the doctrinal obsessions of the Popes and the legacy theology are a destructive force. And the verdict on Christianity is clear: it cannot speak with clarity on the key issue of religion: the self and the soul, the nature of the individual and the fate of man in death. Christianity compared with Buddhism is a pastiche of junk theological notions and exploitative promises of salvation which are bogus. At the key point of relevance it is producing misleading thinking on the abortion issue. To be sure, evangelical Christianity is especially pernicious and some rational thinking has long cautioned Christians who ignore Papal doctrines. To be fair secular humanism can be equally misleading.

We have a long essay on the issue of soul in a link in the previous post. It attempts to consider that soul questions have misled the abortion debate with hopeless confusions. All these issues suffer the Kantian limits of metaphysical discourse but if we look at the legacy of Buddhism we have a far superior approach to the issue of soul and self. The point is that the issue of life at conception has become a misleading fallacy. The real ‘person’ is a latent entity (the term soul has problems) ambiguously at the boundary of space-time and is not affected in any way by abortion. The question of life and the soul is simply botched by Christian thinking. Clearly science will also produce misleading thinking.

The term soul seems to invoke a duality of material and spiritual, but that misses the point completely: there is a unity in reality beyond that misleading distinction.
But we should also consider if conservatives opposing abortion care a brass farthing about life and the unborn. Their general capitalist savagery is poor evidence of concern over life. The control of women in the traditional sense seems a better explanation. It is a useful made-up controversy useful in fueling a rightist politics

In any case, the Buddhist legacy might help to debrief the exploitative and misleading theological myths promoted by Christianity. The confusion created now on the abortion issue is an excusable botch of theological junk religion.

Source: Some posts on abortion issue – 1848+: The End(s) of History

Life, soul, body: religious confusions…//When Does Human Life Begin? | Evolution News

It is surprising that a religious perspective cannot resolve to clarity the issue of abortion. It is posed as an issue of ‘when life begins’, but that is not the point. It is an issue not of life but of ‘soul’ in some sense. An aborted foetus has little to do with the deeper level (confusedly) related to a ‘soul’ nexus that adopts a life form as an entry to the living world. But the real ‘self’ is prior to that and is not affected by decisions to start or finish a life cycle.
We must confront the reality of Nature in the raw with some limits on its abundance of life in profusion to excess. There is no absolute right, need, or duty to accept all initiated life forms and their termination via abortion simply cancels a voyage and the prior ‘who/soul’ simply returns to the waiting room for another opportunity.
The issue of abortion in Roe v. Wade was a genuine advance into the issue of rights, but only after so many centuries of confused thinking by faulty religious discourse. It needs perhaps still more basic clarification, but unfortunately for good Kantian reasons we end mired in metaphysical ambiguity. The Christian legacy is mediocre and the perspective of Buddhism might help to see the way the self/soul has an ambiguous relation to space/time and that it has reality beyond the physical body. But secular humanists will never admit this and tend to complicate the debate with their own false assumptions.
In any case the place of the mother has to be decisive here and that is very much in the ‘interest’ of the unborn who should never be condemned to a life that is botched from the start. Far better for the self/soul to stand in reserve until a healthy, robust life cycle is available. Christiantiy is a complete mess of a religion and confused every question it has addressed.

Source: When Does Human Life Begin? | Evolution News

Repost: Abortion and human psychology…two streams of ‘soul’ religion… Staying wary of Christianity….the pernicious idiocy of the Popes on abortion… – 1848+: The End(s) of History

An older post on the abortion issue….The right’s position on the issue of abortion as some kind of murder is completely confused and it will in due course be a challenge to religion/Christianity itself.
Modern (western) modernity is completely confused on human psychology and religion as monotheism if not Buddhism cannot compute the abortion issue.

Christianity is uniquely confused and plagued with disinformation. The realm of secular humanism is almost worse, but your basic option in a secular time.

Source: Updated: Abortion and human psychology…two streams of ‘soul’ religion… Staying wary of Christianity….the pernicious idiocy of the Popes on abortion… – 1848+: The End(s) of History

Recent posts on the ‘soul’/abortion question

https://redfortyeight.com/2022/05/08/secularism-and-the-eonic-effect-religions-sudden-decline-whats-causing-it-and-what-comes-next-inglehart/
https://redfortyeight.com/2022/05/08/the-calamity-of-abortion-issues-falling-into-the-hands-of-politicians-and-theologians-are-thus-politicians-also/
https://redfortyeight.com/2022/05/08/updated-abortion-and-human-psychologytwo-streams-of-soul-religion-staying-wary-of-christianity-the-pernicious-idiocy-of-the-popes-on-abortion/

Updated: Abortion and human psychology…two streams of ‘soul’ religion… Staying wary of Christianity….the pernicious idiocy of the Popes on abortion…

Christianity is uniquely confused and plagued with disinformation. The realm of secular humanism is almost worse, but your basic option in a secular time. There is no reason why secular humanism has to be so braindead. And there is no reason for such people to dismiss all spiritual beliefs as superstitions. Such people have rarely studied Kant and can’t see their own metaphysics and superstition. They find Nietzche groovy and degenerate into pseudo-philosophers. The issues of soul are a case in point. There is much superstition there, but the core meme is an aspect of human psychology and can’t be amputated. Spiritual beliefs are in the materialism of Samkhya equally material and many students of yoga claim to be doing a spiritual study, but yoga invokes Samkhya at the start and is thus not technically a ‘spiritual subject’.
The history of Christianity can help as a ‘religious’ exercise to see the way the whole subject degenerated, turning ideological and political and serves no purpose beyond crowd control by politicians.

I think our comments on abortion and soul are on the mark although there are still many obscure points here. But the theological injunction against abortion by the theologians has totally misled the public. Such people are not spokesmen for god, but hopless idiots in a tradition so corrupted as to be a dead loss. The reproductive process is an aspect of nature which all too often spawns unlimited or exponential life processes. We must bring human reason to bear to see that women cannot be regulated in the manner of theological now rightist/fascist politics.

I have revised this at some points as indicated as notes in a further update… Update: this account here can I hope help to orient thinking on abortion and soul questions, but it is still some…

Source: Updated: Abortion and human psychology…two streams of ‘soul’ religion… – 1848+: The End(s) of History

Updated: Abortion and human psychology…two streams of ‘soul’ religion…

https://redfortyeight.com/?s=abortion%2C+soul%2C+

I am inserting a later post citing this one in a continued discussion:

Updated: Abortion and human psychology…two streams of ‘soul’ religion… Staying wary of Christianity….the pernicious idiocy of the Popes on abortion…

Updated: Abortion and human psychology…two streams of ‘soul’ religion… Staying wary of Christianity….the pernicious idiocy of the Popes on abortion…
Christianity is uniquely confused and plagued with disinformation. The realm of secular humanism is almost worse, but your basic option in a secular time. There is no reason why secular humanism has to be so braindead. And there is no reason for such people to dismiss all spiritual beliefs as superstitions. Such people have rarely studied Kant and can’t see their own metaphysics and superstition. They find Nietzche groovy and degenerate into pseudo-philosophers. The issues of soul are a case in point. There is much superstition there, but the core meme is an aspect of human psychology and can’t be amputated. Spiritual beliefs are in the materialism of Samkhya equally material and many students of yoga claim to be doing a spiritual study, but yoga invokes Samkhya at the start and is thus not technically a ‘spiritual subject’.
The history of Christianity can help as a ‘religious’ exercise to see the way the whole subject degenerated, turning ideological and political and serves no purpose beyond crowd control by politicians.

I think our comments on abortion and soul are on the mark although there are still many obscure points here. But the theological injunction against abortion by the theologians has totally misled the public. Such people are not spokesmen for god, but hopless idiots in a tradition so corrupted as to be a dead loss. The reproductive process is an aspect of nature which all too often spawns unlimited or exponential life processes. We must bring human reason to bear to see that women cannot be regulated in the manner of theological now rightist/fascist politics.
<blockquote>I have revised this at some points as indicated as notes in a further update… Update: this account here can I hope help to orient thinking on abortion and soul questions, but it is still some…</blockquote>

———–

I have revised this at some points as indicated as notes in a further update…

Source: soul questions, and abortion…// the right thinks nothing of genocide but protests abortion sanity – 1848+: The End(s) of History

Update: this account here can I hope help to orient thinking on abortion and soul questions, but it is still somewhat inadequate and inconsistently introduces a spiritual/material distinction.

Note; This might sound vague or unsure: better that way. Propagandists always speak lies with great assurance, the Pope is the perfect example. Such Christians have totally muddled religion.

A long-time new ager, student of Buddhism, Sufism but also in some fashion a secular humanist, I have managed to evade some of the confusion over soul questions. But the question of soul and some form of materialism confuses the issue. In the legacy of something like Samkhya even ‘soul’ would be material, but in a different mode or degree of the ‘material’. Universal materialism in some form is important but it is not the same as the materialism of physics. In any case our statement stands: the soul factor cannot be directly connected to the issue of abortion which can have no effect on the different modes of ‘material’ soul. There is all sorts of New Age nonsense on all this in general, but best to be wary of most of it.
Note: The realm of Sufism is too arcane even to Muslims and most ‘Sufis’, is lost to Christianity, and I would recommend a cautious Buddhist approach which has its own far simpler methodology and deals with man as he is: the path to enlightenment offers a more secure and still intelligible path to enlightenment and its relation to material rebirth. Sufism is a brand of gnosticism embedded in Islam and theistically focused. It is entirely possible to be an atheist ‘sufi’ but they must have all been killed off. The term ‘god’ is mostly gibberish but has a gnostic legacy that is a truer version.
The arcane version of soul reference at the fringes even of the Sufi movement is something else and there is simply no public information on the subject. Note: Here we must consider the dangers of ‘soul creation’: do you really want to make evil men immortal ghosts? A soul in this larger sense would be disastrous in most cases, even with ordinary men. That’s why

our Buddhist view seems better: death strips the chaff away and you start over, perhaps with some aspect of learned living implicit.

Note: Further, nature can’t depend on esoteric teachings: it must have beside what we see its own version of our second perspective?? Bennett spotted one answer: ordinary men in lives well lived with conscious efforts, ethical awareness and aesthetic aspect impress the memory of nature with enduring value. A bit vague but the point is that nature cannot preserve unlimited defective soul cases.

It is my guess that two streams of religion emerge in the Neolithic: the Indic and its much larger ‘reformation’ in Buddhism, and another first visible in Egyptian religion (consider the decline of that in the hocus pocus of mummies and the obsession with ‘death’ and the afterlife) and which suddenly emerges in a new form in early Christianity, passing into Islam within ‘sufism’. But clearly, the Christian version died out and Christians now are caught in a hopelessly sterile degeneration of ‘soul’ beliefs with a basis of ‘faith salvation’ which to the best of my knowledge I would call a defunct superstition.

Note: the issue of Egyptian religion is very complex: the religion we see in the era of the early Pharaohs ca. 3000 BCE could be a distortion of its original form. If our conjecture about the Neolithic is right, then the sources of the later Egyptian religion are as far from their sources (viz. ca. 5000 BCE!) as Christianity now is from its courses ca. 0 AD and/or the early Israelitism. As we see the connection of modern Christianity with its sources is highly vexed and plagued with disinformation, essentially defunct. Gurdjieff used to note this, speaking of pre-sand Egypt. In India, yoga in some form we suspect was already being used in the Neolithic, as references to various constellations seem to indicate. That seems right: everything that makes us human in terms of civilization is seeded in the Neolithic. But they didn’t have writing, but with extensive oral traditions (consider the actual fact of oral traditions in India, for example. The sutras were once to be memorized by the student.)

The issue of universal materialism as in Samkhya is also very ancient thus, I would guess, but muddled mostly: a version appears in J.G. Bennett, often discussed here, but despite his far richer and often cogent version of spiritual psychology he remains muddled on many questions: his mentor the notorious Gurdjieff seems to have known the Sufi legacy of soul but that whole legacy is caught up in his demonic brand of esoteric Beelzebub’, gosh knows what that is about. You don’t have any business with such people. Note: Be careful what you wish for: you can be freeze-dried as an immortal devil. Watch out. Better the Buddhist approach.
The issue of human psychology is evolutionary and the evolution of man produces a ‘soul’ aspect in our first sense very early on, according to Bennett et al. That would be the right foundation, but in the world of Darwinism, the evolution question is so muddled as to make the issue hopeless. Man as homo sapiens, I would guess, ‘evolves’ a complex package ‘mind’, ‘soul’, and ‘real consciousness’ factors as a matter of his species characteristic and here matching that almost mythical legacy with some basic Buddhism might be a life boat vehicle…The point here is that you have a ‘soul’ factor that reincarnates in cycles of rebirth as the hominid you are since the dawn of ‘Man’. For how long is unclear. Make good use of your time, ‘immortality’ may not be immortal.

Christianity is a useless mess. I would not pray to jesus to save you, it’s not going to happen. As Buddha insisted you must achieve you own liberation. Make your Christian activity historical study, what the heck was that? and then move on. The passage to the secular is inexorable. Let me also note that early Judaism disbelieved in ‘soul’. And it is entirely apt, but misleading now. Jews and Christians (and many other streams) are so intermixed now that the ancient Judaic legacy would appear to be no longer relevant.

————-yesterday’s post.
The abortion debate is moving into a new and deadly new fanaticism. We have tried many times to clarify the issues, entirely in vain. The entire spectrum of religious theology, rightist ideology and secular humanism has proven inadequate to the debate. Continue reading “Updated: Abortion and human psychology…two streams of ‘soul’ religion…”

 Abortion debate madness and its madmen…

https://redfortyeight.com/?s=abortion%2C+soul%2C+

The abortion debate is moving into a new and deadly new fanaticism. We have tried many times to clarify the issues, entirely in vain. The entire spectrum of religious theology, rightist ideology and secular humanism has proven inadequate to the debate.
Let me note at the start that the right, a bunch of genocidal killers, suddenly expresses concern over the fetus, while secular humanists befuddle the issue with a reductionist and inadequate conceptions of ‘man’ and his nature. Women are more often compassionate, yet charged with abortion as murder. Their instincts are right: the nature of procreation cannot be subject to external control, by the state or by men. Here the legacy of Christianity has proven pernicious because it claims that man has a soul and then confuses that with reproductive function. Here the Kantian critique of metaphysics enters to insure the hopeless muddle of both sides. The ‘soul’ is real, but we can’t have direct perception of its reality and indulge the reverse metaphysics of denial. Continue reading ” Abortion debate madness and its madmen…”